Guilt vs. shame in Thailand

[Stargazer]

I recently read a comment that Thai are less inclined to be constrained in conduct by guilt, but are more concerned with shame. That is to say the issue is not the badness of the action, but rather whether your partner/family/village knows about it.

Or: it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you make sure no one knows about it. Hence, lying about things is ok, in fact is a good idea. Therefore, lying to cover up is not a source of guilt at all.

(I confess a certain attitudinal problem: if someone lies repeatedly, I am inclined to no longer trust them at all. Kind of Old Testament, I admit. At odds with 'forgive and forget'. I'm inclined to forgive the first lie, but not forget. After the second lie, further forgiveness seems foolish)

(Let's exclude the scandalous recent politics in the USA where there is no longer any agreed upon body of 'truth') I'm not knocking Thailand, just trying to understand it.

I'd appreciate comments from members who have more years of experience here than I do. Perhaps the concept of guilt is just a farang idea.

 

[Croc]

only face is important in the land of smiles

 

[georgefromcanada]

Thailand is a giant Potamkin village.

As Croc said only face is important, shame is a much bigger deterrent than guilt.

 

[FERRET]

Thailand is a giant Potamkin village.

As Croc said only face is important, shame is a much bigger deterrent than guilt.

 

[Ivor the Engine]

Other Asean countries use the phrase ' Don't Thai to me'. I think that speaks volumes!!!

 

[Stargazer]

Thanks for the insights. This is not limited to Thailand, of course, Ivor. Here in the good ole USA, 'land of the free' we have a former president who is easy to understand: if he's talking or tweeting, odds are better than even that he's lying . No Thai connection at all.

 

[Stargazer]

Thailand is a giant Potemkin Village.

I've seldom seen it so succinctly characterized, George. As Paul Simon wrote in 'Mrs. Robinson': "Laugh about it, shout about it, when you have to choose. Every way you look at this you lose." As the Thailand Inquirer wrote: "Thailand has had 13 successful coups (and many more coup attempts) since the start of the 20th century." I'll try to lower my expectations sufficiently, keep my powder dry in the bank, and keep my sense of humor. Recommend any good English-language Thai fiction? I'm currently reading a John Burdett novel, not bad.

 

[FERRET]

Thanks for the insights. This is not limited to Thailand, of course, Ivor. Here in the good ole USA, 'land of the free' we have a former president who is easy to understand: if he's talking or tweeting, odds are better than even that he's lying . No Thai connection at all.

 

[Cent]

Shaming a Thai, making them lose face, can be dangerous. Many will use the 'sin of omission' rather than lie. What you don't know won't hurt 'them' is the game many play here.

 

[Coffee]

Recommend any good English-language Thai fiction? I'm currently reading a John Burdett novel, not bad.

I really enjoyed most of Burdett's Thai-based fiction. He skillfully captures the Thai vibe, nuances and predominant characteristics that is certainly dwelling on the seamier side.

Mel, give Stephen Leather's "Private Dancer" a shot. It really takes the shine off of our sweet Thai apple.

 

[georgefromcanada]

Being considerate, polite, making sure that nobody is losing face is a very important principle in the Thai culture.

When is a “lie” the proper way to act
In the west, we generally choose the truth even if it hurts. In Thailand, people will mostly choose greengjai over the truth. If the truth would hurt, then it should not and will not be told in Thailand.

This offers some very accurate insights into Thai culture.

10+ Things you need to know about Thai people and Thai culture

10+ Things you need to know about Thai people and Thai culture - Chiang Mai Locator, wiki

www.chiangmailocator.com

 

[Stargazer]

This offers some very accurate insights into Thai culture.

10+ Things you need to know about Thai people and Thai culture

10+ Things you need to know about Thai people and Thai culture - Chiang Mai Locator, wiki

www.chiangmailocator.com

Very interesting article, George! Thank you. Trying to truly put this in perspective makes me think of an idea in Robert Heinlein's book 'Stranger in a Strange Land': the concept of 'Grok' as sort of an intuitive understanding that surpasses reason.

 

[Deerculler]

only face is important in the land of smiles

Pretty well most of Asia it is Face.

 

[Cent]

I've seldom seen it so succinctly characterized, George. As Paul Simon wrote in 'Mrs. Robinson': "Laugh about it, shout about it, when you have to choose. Every way you look at this you lose." As the Thailand Inquirer wrote: "Thailand has had 13 successful coups (and many more coup attempts) since the start of the 20th century." I'll try to lower my expectations sufficiently, keep my powder dry in the bank, and keep my sense of humor. Recommend any good English-language Thai fiction? I'm currently reading a John Burdett novel, not bad.

"and keep my sense of humor"

If you can do that you are half way home to living well in the LOS. Realizing all is not as it seems here (rose colored glasses), watch your cash and your back, and take advantage of the opportunities for sanuk/fun, lust, love and life and you're doing fine. So many back home are stuck in a life of boredom, routine, and come across as such miserable people living miserable, angry, even delusional lives. Not very appealing.

 

[Cent]

"and keep my sense of humor"

If you can do that you are half way home to living well in the LOS. Realizing all is not as it seems here (rose colored glasses), watch your cash and your back, and take advantage of the opportunities for sanuk/fun, lust, love and life and you're doing fine. So many back home are stuck in a life of boredom, routine, and come across as such miserable people living miserable, angry, even delusional lives. Not very appealing.

One thing I find keeps me interested in the country is the many places you can visit around Thailand that I find 'of interest'. The many ruins, caves, rock art, and temples. There's always something to see if you want to get out and about, and plenty of inexpensive but decent rooms in the many 'resorts' everywhere to be found. Holidays are very affordable and the nature reserves, animals and such are everywhere. Add in the many nice beaches, mountains, and a plethora of great foods and places to eat and drink. And other countries nearby to visit as well, inexpensive flights and bus tours, etc makes for a pleasant time in the country. The nightlife and available party girls are an attraction for many as well. Cheap brews as well for the drinkers is another attraction. One can easily live well on a small pension, the climate is good most of the time too. Nary a snowflake in sight. LOL

 

[Cent]

I am hoping to go see the Ban Chiang archeological site in Nong Han district, Udon Thani Province, when the weather cools down and the rains end.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ban_Chiang?fbclid=IwAR1vuq97XfKFKsONSnfMqlTcR6nIVwPDJcMwXhEO5OBmscIJkAA6iipHkEE&h=AT1aAdLqQ3yFhQNK5hoS8i7r16JjGGO4HCu2xWGOZ4lZfW4pIRMG0AZefJUHqpFvkS9gLdggdnjBRMW130wVzYVbplapfPjqEe7a6bkyZhqkGysGd0PfdWfvC0bg_RoVwA&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT0abp-gjS2C_EivP7O0Z7lKhVAmNTAB33E8RK2W1pc7ZzJwg2mScq_c5PCU28lD3djwH2xk6zpGGjtw9Luk8QqkUiXeB36IRb_R1fSzpFqgy8J5vP7-wqT8-fJUovXlAXdKfqL7KDQGHyyjfyxN0s5KSQQPPTWpIzmCyMg-ZL8218BpBxJvzQ

 

[Cent]

I am hoping to go see the Ban Chiang archeological site in Nong Han district, Udon Thani Province, when the weather cools down and the rains end.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ban_Chiang?fbclid=IwAR1vuq97XfKFKsONSnfMqlTcR6nIVwPDJcMwXhEO5OBmscIJkAA6iipHkEE&h=AT1aAdLqQ3yFhQNK5hoS8i7r16JjGGO4HCu2xWGOZ4lZfW4pIRMG0AZefJUHqpFvkS9gLdggdnjBRMW130wVzYVbplapfPjqEe7a6bkyZhqkGysGd0PfdWfvC0bg_RoVwA&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT0abp-gjS2C_EivP7O0Z7lKhVAmNTAB33E8RK2W1pc7ZzJwg2mScq_c5PCU28lD3djwH2xk6zpGGjtw9Luk8QqkUiXeB36IRb_R1fSzpFqgy8J5vP7-wqT8-fJUovXlAXdKfqL7KDQGHyyjfyxN0s5KSQQPPTWpIzmCyMg-ZL8218BpBxJvzQ

I am also wanting to revisit the Kalasin dinosaur museum. I was there many years ago when they first were digging up this site before they had the museum started. Not far for us here and I hear they did a good job with this museum and the area. Last I was there they only had a hole in the ground and a tarp covering the site and a few of the skeletons out for viewing. A weekend away and I am sure the gals would like to see the Wats again and eat whatever is the specialty of the area they deem 'arroy mahk.

"While you are in this area, check out two nearby temples, Wat Phutthawat Phu Sing and Wat Phuttha Nimit. We would also recommend heading back to Lam Pao Dam, where you can go chill on a beach! Check out our post on Dok Ket Beach."

https://itsbetterinthailand.com/activities/sirindhorn-dinosaur-museum/#:~:text=The discovery of dinosaurs in,Sakkawan by Phra Kru Vijitsahassakun.

 

[Stargazer]

Thanks, all. One of my classmates (an Aussie) who has been a visiting professor in Thailand read George's linked article and replied this:

"Thank you for sharing this insightful article on Thai values with me. I found many of its points to be very useful in understanding the Thai frame of reference on truth, subtlety of meaning and obfuscation. The Western concept of "transparency" in dealing with people, either on a personal or business level, is virtually non-existent in Thai society.
In my experience of visiting Thailand for 40 years next year, I have many examples of the truths in these 11 principles. Two come to mind. First, I was to conduct a seminar on "Emotional Intelligence" at former Thaksin's Shinawatra Corporation from 1.30-4.30pm one afternoon. The due time for beginning the seminar came and went, with about half the audience present. The convenor was quite relaxed and we finally started the seminar at 2pm. The latecomers made various excuses, mostly to do with heavy traffic. This was an important seminar with executives of one of Thailand's most prestigious companies. "Mai pen rai" is a common, catch-all excuse and frustrates most Westerners. The second experience happened to my wife, Judith, as we were walking along the main street of Bangsaen, Chonburi. A shopfitter threw a pipe out into the street from the building site, causing my wife to trip and fall over. He merely smiled and carried on with his work as if nothing had happened. Our Thai hosts explained that he was probably embarrassed that his action had caused her fall, but had no English to explain his embarrassment.
If more farangs could read these 12 principles, then there would be far less confusion as they adapted to a very different culture!"

 

[Stargazer]

I am hoping to go see the Ban Chiang archeological site in Nong Han district, Udon Thani Province, when the weather cools down and the rains end.

We'll check that out. We had a lovely week on Koh Chang last year, and also driving around Kanchanaburi. My wife says Laos is well worth a visit. She has been herself to Luang Prabang, as I also have been in my previous life. She loved it. It seemed more to me like a trendy touristy international backpacker crowd place that used to be quaint, but don't be put off by a crusty old guy's view. We liked the beaches of Khao Lak. I've heard that Koh Li Pe is lovely. With the new international airport terminal in Buriram, perhaps it will be possible to fly to Yunnan, a very nice slice of China not far from us. Dali and Lijiang are well worth a visit. And Thailand itself is very diverse, and I find the Isaan people to by and large have good hearts.